The second law of thermodynamics refers to
the NET transfer of heat energy that must be from warmer to cooler bodies.
There is energy transfer in both directions resulting in
a net transfer of heat from the hotter to the cooler
The diurnal and seasonal variations add, however, to the circulation but can not lead to more
net transfer of heat to upper altitudes than the optically thin atmosphere can lose by net IR (emission - absorption).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but El Nino doesn't «warm» the atmosphere, because there is still
a net transfer of heat from the air to the ocean.
For the atmosphere to be heating the oceans (not buffering the loss of heat from the oceans which you keep describing), but actually HEATING the oceans, there HAS to be
a NET transfer of heat energy FROM the atmosphere TO the oceans.
there must be
a NET transfer of heat energy FROM the atmosphere TO the oceans.
The amount of energy absorbed depends on the temperature of the absorber, shown to be true by the stefan - boltzmann equation for
net transfer of heat.
That makes it look like 2010 was characterized by a slight departure from the average
net transfers of heat between ocean and surface.
Not exact matches
This creates a dense
net of fibers that water can't penetrate — and it also traps air bubbles that prevent
heat transfer, keeping water from freezing on the feather's surface.
Changes in Hadley circulation affects convection and thus atmospheric moisture content and cloud cover which may in turn affect
net solar
heating as well as the
transfer of heat from Earth to space.
Radiation
transfers heat across different scales at different optical thicknesses for different frequencies; the
net radiant flux depends more on temperature variations that occur over distances on the order
of a unit
of optical thickness, so the
net flux can be through smaller - scale temperature variations.
Yes, when looking at energy
transfer and its capacity to effect temperature change,
NET heat transfer, the sum
of all the separate
transfers IS what is relevent.
EM waves
transfer energy from one location to another, it is the
net transfer of energy that is considered
heat.
For example: you write That is why the 364 W / m2
of potential
heat transfer from air that is 10 °C will not warm you up but I know if I take an ice cube out
of the freezer it will melt in the shade during your cool afternoon air... so it is all about the
net balances... and the introduction
of the word forcing seems to introduce a totally spurious concept that can only confuse.
The basis for that view is simply the amount
of long wave (LW) energy that is absorbed by the atmosphere is already small which is why forcing is used in place
of net heat transfers.
Clouds, the result
of evaporation, are the visible, observable proof that
NET heat energy
transfer is FROM the oceans, TO the atmosphere.
You created the requirement
of a
net transfer from the atmosphere to the ocean, whereas I explained with two examples that the greenhouse effect can put
heat in the oceans due to a change in greenhouse gases despite a flatlining in surface temperatures
of both ocean and air AND an uninterrupted
net transfer from ocean to air.
So, with that bit
of confusing verbiage, I renew my request: Does anyone know
of or could you create some kind
of illustrations / animation that show masses (water) being displaced vertically when there is e.g. Eckman pumping, and something that shows
net conventional
heat transfer, but applied to this particular subject?
In general, the tropical oceans will tend to show a
net gain
of heat, and the polar oceans a
net loss, the result
of a
net transfer of energy polewards in the oceans.
Your theory and that
of the man you cite, Claes Johnson, in which
net heat transfer is considered a fiction, can not properly explain how a thermos works.
This is why all
heat transfer calculations and measurements work in all other disciplines except Atmospheric physics act on the basis
of identifying the
net energy flow.
The formula for the «
net rate [from the enclosed object]
of loss or gain
of energy by radiation (or the
heat transferred by radiation) is
If this was an issue
of science for the purpose
of advancement
of our understanding, the question would be is the value
of the
net effect from the combination
of geothermal
heat transfer and permanent energy uptake 3, 6.5, or 18.05 Watts / m ^ 2; but as this entire issue is nothing more than a politically motivated fabrication the only question
of concern seems to be who said what about whom and were they justified in doing so.
If we use Miskolczi value
of 250.05 Watts / m ^ 2 this combined
net contribution from geothermal
heat transfer and the permanent incorporation
of incoming energy into the Earth's systems we get 18.05 Watts / m ^ 2.
The circular flow
of heat is impossible,
of course, but no
net cooling occurs aside from tiny
transfers of heat from the gas in or out
of the wire as they come into a state
of dynamic equilibrium.
I suspect that the
net effect
of this
heat transfer is improved cooling efficiency because thermally driven self - organized systems generally work that way rather than the other way.
The most natural type
of long term variability is in my view based on slowly varying changes in ocean circulation, which doesn't necessarily involve major
transfer of heat from one place to another but influences cloudiness and other large scale weather patterns and through that the
net energy flux
of the Earth system.
The only comment I agree with is that the shell does not
transfer «
heat» to the sphere (by definition
of heat transfer), but it does cause the sphere to
heat up due to the
transfer of back radiation energy (you can have energy
transfer both ways, but
heat transfer only refers to
NET energy transfer), and this requires a higher sphere equilibrium temperature for a given energy net transfer for net energy balan
NET energy
transfer), and this requires a higher sphere equilibrium temperature for a given energy
net transfer for net energy balan
net transfer for
net energy balan
net energy balance.
«in an isotropic non GHG world, the
net would be zero, as the mean conduction flux would equalize, but in our earth it is still nearly zero» if the atmosphere were isothermal at the same temperature as the surface then exactly the downwelling radiation absorbed by the surface would be equal to the radiation
of th surface absorbed by the air (or rather by its trace gases) and both numbers would be (1 - 2E3 (t (nu)-RRB--RRB- pi B (nu, T) where t (nu) is the optical thickness, B the Planck function, nu the optical frequency and T the temperature; as the flow from the air absorbed by the surface is equal to the flow from the surface absorbed by the air, the radiative
heat transfer is zero between surface and air.
DWR54 wrote: «Most
of the
heat coming off the ground (or walls, etc) is convection — or «
net»
transfer of heat from a warmer to a cooler medium, typically causing
heat to rise from the surface into the cooler air aloft.
Without atmosphere the surface
of the ocean or land would lose o (T ^ 4 — Ts ^ 4)(1) where Ts is the temperature
of the space (about 4K) while in the presence
of the atmosphere the
heat losses are hc * (T — Tl)(2) and o (T ^ 4 — Tl ^ 4)(3) where (2) represents the
heat transfer by convection (inclusive conduction) through the air layer and (3) corresponds to the
net flow due to the
heat exchange by radiation, Tl being the mean temperature
of the air layer.
From this layman's perspective you are discussing
NET radiative
heat transfer between non-gaseous objects thus infering wide band land wave radiation is emitted / absorbed by the surface
of each object.
This
heat transfers to the atmosphere as 97 W / m ^ 2 convection / evapo - transpiration plus 63 W / m ^ 2 real
net IR emission,
of which 40 W / m ^ 2 goes to Space (2009 «Energy Budget»).
Allyene — not in «
heat is the
net transfer of energy from hot to cold and cold to hot», and, statistically speaking or not, see Joel's post re amount.
The actual Second Law is based on the fact that although energy
transfers occur in both directions, by simple statistics it becomes essentially astronomically improbable that the
net flow
of energy, what we call «
heat» -LSB-,] will be from the hotter body to the colder body for any macroscopic bodies.
The actual Second Law is based on the fact that although energy
transfers occur in both directions, by simple statistics it becomes essentially astronomically improbable that the
net flow
of energy, what we call «
heat» will be from the hotter body to the colder body for any macroscopic bodies.
However SOME energy can be
transferred from cold to warm, as long as MORE energy is
transferred from warm to cold (ie as long as the
net transfer of energy is from warm to cool; ie as long as the
heat is from warm to cool).
That gravity is responsible for the 33K in unexplained
heating and contrary to the assumptions
of the radiative
transfer model, increasing the weight
of N2O2 in the atmosphere will increase the surface temperature, as more and more molecules are packed into a smaller volume, resulting in a
net increase in energy per cubic meter
of atmosphere at the surface, which we measure as an increase in temperature.
In this equation, q is the rate
of heat transfer, which is the
NET rate
of energy
transfer.
By the way, I accept that, in the case
of both soldering irons, the direction
of net heat transfer is from the very hot
heating element to the less hot iron to the still less hot penny.
Ira:... «By the way, I accept that, in the case
of both soldering irons, the direction
of net heat transfer is from the very hot
heating element to the less hot iron to the still less hot penny.
A correct statement is that latent
heat transfer is the most important source
of warming
of the atmosphere (when LWIR is considered based on
net values, not gross).
It means that all objects are at the same temperature and there is no
net heat transfer and no gain or loss
of energy from the system.
This is the only mention
of «
net»,
of net change, I don't understand how that can apply to «
net as
transfer of radiation» outside
of it relating to the flow
of heat energy as above and by breaking the 2nd Law
of heat flowing always from hot to cold and never the other way around, naturally spontaneous, that is, without work being done to change it.
If true, then a discussion
of the «
net rate
of energy
transfer» isn't «bull»; it is just one way
of determining the
heat between objects; and hence can be used in part to determine the surface temperatures
of objects in a multi-object system.
cementafriend, thanks for bring this up: «If convection occurs before radiation and the temperature
of the atmosphere just above the surface is the same as the surface then it is clear that radiation to absorbing gases (CO2 and water vapour) will be zero because there is no
net heat transfer between objects at the same temperature.».