One of Phil's recent comments indicated to me, that he believes, that the N2 / O2 / Ar do
NOT radiate, as per my concept; BUT those gases are in thermal equilibrium with the trace CO2 / H2O / O3 / whatever other GHG molecules that are IR active, so they match in Temperature, and then the IR active GHG molecules radiate according to whatever vibrational / rotational etc states those molecules have; so that the «Atmospheric LWIR radiation» then does carry the signature of the various GHG species, rather than being «BB like».
Now if you are talking of one isolated warm N2 molecule moving isolated in empty space you would be correct, it could
not radiate except at it's emission lines and once it reached it's ground electron, vibration and rotational state it could
not radiate at all, zero, zip, none.
I sometimes feel I have been led, lied to and swindled out of some of my forty year understanding of physics, constantly being reminded, no told, from all sides that O2, N2 & argon do not and can
not radiate, even when combined as an atmosphere.
We do
not radiate Near IR, we're not hot enough, we radiate Thermal IR, around the 10micron range as does the Earth generally.
I suspect that it is not at all easy to see because I am pretty well convinced that N2 can
not radiate any appreciable amount of IR in the 5 - 50 um range associated with the applicable temperatures.
If they can
not radiate just going up will do little.
Surely the test should be that CO2 and H2O in the gaseous phase do
not radiate in the IR should be sufficient, all other features will remain the same.
So you are saying that if you had a large clump of warm nitrogen in empty space held together by gravity that it could
not radiate in a black body manner at all, zero, none, zip?
Then add heated molecules that can
not radiate and over time they would get to the temperature of the surface.
I see no reason why two atoms (or molecules) in such a collision would
not radiate according to Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism.
So Maxwell says such a free roaming particle does
not radiate EM energy; well if it did it would apparently evaporate itself, since there is nothing around to resupply it with energy.
Indeed, let us go all Zeno-esque and show that Earth's surface can
not radiate at all.
Highly polished metal has an emissivity ~ 0.03 and will
not radiate much energy.
Because it has been measured and N2 does
not radiate at the temperatures normally found at the surface.
Then, — if it is basic stuff — why do Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon
not radiate anything at all towards the Earth's surface?
1) As I mentioned on May 29, 2011 at 1:37 pm: «If it is correct that all objects that have a temperature above Zero Kelvin (0K) must emit energy by radiation, then why do Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon
not radiate anything at all towards the Earth's surface?»
All of you came to the conclusion that G&T were of the opinion that colder objects could
not radiate to hotter objects.
Regarding «E = εσT4 = DLR Energy Re-radiated + Energy radiated from the bulk... One I thing I did discover is that the bulk can
not radiate energy, as noted by Frank when he said:»
Your body does
not radiate less to your coat and become warm.
O2 and N2 do
not radiate (almost) so without the GHGs you would not get much downward LW.
Objects do
not radiate because they receive radiation, they radiate because of their temperature.
The steel plate will
not radiate equally in both directions.
When you factor in that at the very least it can
not radiate between 8 and 14 microns (the atmospheric window) because if it did it would be opaque at these wavelengths it is very very much too cold to radiate 165 watts.
That implies that an excited electron in a greenhouse gas molecule in the atmosphere can
not radiate toward the ground unless it can «find» another electron on the surface in a ground state which is capable of absorbing the photon which is to be radiated.
The paper mention that considerable amount energy is lost in higher atmospheric elevation - this must have to mostly be regarding «greenhouse gases» as non-greenhouse do
not radiate a significant amount of energy, so I question this assertion.
There is this idea that floats around the climate skeptic blogosphere that somehow a cold body does
not radiate AT ALL to a warmer object, as if radiation from the cool atmosphere to the warm ground violates the 2nd Law.
Hence carbon dioxide molecules have a cooling role radiating away that thermal energy which they acquire from oxygen and nitrogen molecules that can
not radiate themselves.
The only discussion, is are there any realistic conditions where an atmospheric shell could
not radiate heat to interstellar space?
The earth does
not radiate an appreciable amount of heat into space, and the «greehouse gases» do not make the atmosphere less reflective to photons raining down on us from the sun.
An atmosphere that is perfectly transparent to incoming and outgoing radiation can
not radiate and all its heat content comes from conduction from the surface and is transported through the atmosphere solely by convection with no loss of energy to space except for the tiny fraction of atoms at the top of the atmosphere that exceed escape velocity.
CO2 radiation at high above is cold (depends on altitudes, latitudes, and longitudes, say from 0degreeC to -60 degreeC) can
not radiate net heat back to the Earth which is at a higher temperature.
Try and prove the next MyrrhScienceFiction claim that the earth does
not radiate IR.
There is a greenhouse effect, caused by the radiatively «inactive» atmospheric gases (N2, O2), which can
not radiate to space and therefore «warm» the atmosphere by insulating it from the cold of space.
@Edim: There is a greenhouse effect, caused by the radiatively «inactive» atmospheric gases (N2, O2), which can
not radiate to space and therefore «warm» the atmosphere by insulating it from the cold of space.
Glass can
not radiate visible light to space (or to anywhere else) and therefore «insulates» a brightly lit scene on one side from a dark region on the other.
A gas molecule can
not radiate as long as its energy is lower than the energy of a photon of the lowest emission line in its line spectrum.
Steven Mosher says, January 26, 2013 at 4:31 pm: «Because we have GHGs (including water vapor) in the atmosphere the earth does
not radiate directly from the surface to space.
Because we have GHGs (including water vapor) in the atmosphere the earth does
not radiate directly from the surface to space.
More potential energy and less kinetic energy allows more retention of energy because potential energy can
not radiate out.
«I've yet to find a single one that supports your claim the EM does not travel in opposing directions; that a blackbody does
not radiate EM energy according to its temperature.»
Except for: — Your claims that bidirectional EM violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics; — Your sentient detector that received no energy from the object it is pointed at but radiates energy according to the temperature it is point at allowing you to see beyond the edge of the observable universe (Still awaiting the Nobel prize for that one no doubt); — Your perfectly radiating blackbody that does
not radiate according to its temperature; — Your claims EM energy interferes which prevents energy from a colder body reaching a warmer one — a concept which would mean it would be impossible to see your reflection in a mirror.
@ VTG: Lacis said that N2 and O2 at temperatures above absolute zero do
not radiate at all?
Did you get Lacis to confirm that he meant to say «N2 and 02» do
not radiate at all?
Heat that ends up in the ocean essentially contributes to the imbalance because thermal physics says it can
not radiate from depth.
But for some reason it does
not radiate much ambiance and warmth.
Merely bringing them into the classroom does
not radiate learning to students.
With some of the cast talking directly to the audience to fill us in on what's going on, «I, Tonya» stars Margot Robbie as a 15 - year - old right up to her 25th year: credit the wig people and makeup artists for converting a classy - looking actress as a hardscrabble, working - class woman who had in at least one instance is looked over by as a representative of her sport because she does
not radiate a wholesome, family manner.
Cervicalgia is a pain in the neck which does
not radiate outwards (or down the arms).
But there could be advantages to turbulence if handled properly, the authors point out, since energy contained in turbulence does
not radiate away.
[26] Stars above this mass can
not radiate energy fast enough to remain stable, so any additional mass will be ejected in a series of pulsations until the star reaches a stable limit.