The temperature effects of cloud cover during the 20th century could be as much as 7 times greater than the alleged temperature effect of 200 years worth of additional carbon dioxide and several times greater than that of all additional greenhouse gases combined.
Not exact matches
In the case
of a nearby super nova the
effect can be more than 50 %
of the growth rate, which will have an impact on the
clouds and the Earth's
temperature.
Despite its smaller ash
cloud, El Chichn emitted more than 40 times the volume
of sulfur - rich gases produced by Mt. St. Helens, which revealed that the formation
of atmospheric sulfur aerosols has a more substantial
effect on global
temperatures than simply the volume
of ash produced during an eruption.
For a subset
of 14 relatively clear (cloudy) stations, the mean
temperature drop was 0.91 ± 0.78 (0.31 ± 0.40) degrees C, but the mean
temperature drops for relatively calm and windy stations were almost identical, indicating that
cloud cover has a much greater
effect than wind on the air
temperature's response to an eclipse.
They found a small correlation between cosmic rays and global
temperatures occurring every 22 years; however, the changing cosmic ray rate lagged behind the change in
temperatures by between one and two years, suggesting that the cause
of the
temperature rise might not be attributable to cosmic rays and
cloud formation, but could be caused by the direct
effects of the sun.
When the CLIMAP data proved to be wrong, and was replaced by more reliable estimates showing a substantial tropical surface
temperature drop, Lindzen had to abandon his then - current model and move on to other forms
of mischief (first the «cumulus drying» negative water vapor feedback mechanism, since abandoned, and now the «Iris»
effect cloud feedback mechanism).
There is a clear impact on global
temperature, too, though the mechanisms are complex: heat released from the oceans; increases in water vapor, which enhance the greenhouse
effect, and redistributions
of clouds.
And as this knowledge is disseminated and better understood, eventually we'll have better models, and can achieve more widespread adoption
of them - if the solar / cosmic ray /
cloud mechanism is significant it could explain why
temperatures in neither hemisphere are proceeding upwards lock - step with IPCC forecasts - and opening the door for a more accurate and widespread acknowledgement
of CO2
effects on
temperature and climate.
In addition, since the global surface
temperature records are a measure that responds to albedo changes (volcanic aerosols,
cloud cover, land use, snow and ice cover) solar output, and differences in partition
of various forcings into the oceans / atmosphere / land / cryosphere, teasing out just the
effect of CO2 + water vapor over the short term is difficult to impossible.
While on the subject: Could I ask your take on Erlykin et al. 2011, in particular their finding that any
effect of cosmic radiation is limited to 1 %
of cloud cover, and their estimate that any
temperature increase due to such a mechanism over the past 50 years
of barely changing CR is limited to 0.002 °C?
For cause and
effect: You never know, but I don't think that
cloud cover regulates the sun cycle... Globally, the variation
of cloud cover during a sun cycle is around 2 %, which can have a substantial influence on global
temperatures.
By the way, low
clouds in darkness increase surface
temperature, sort
of like the inverse property
of commonly understood Cosmic ray
effect, not causing a cooling because there are more CR's, but rather a warming, which only low
clouds in total darkness can do, so the probable CR
temperature signal gets cancelled from one latitude dark vs bright region to the next.
It's possible that CO2 contributes about a.6 C increase in
temperature and that the
effects of clouds acts as a negative feedback to moderate further increases.
The paper he wrote together with Friis - Christensen in which he found a correlation between solar activity and
clouds had a «slight» flaw: it ignored that the period
of the study coincided with a big El Nino, and that large scale changes in ocean surface
temperature are going to have an
effect on
cloud formation.
I would suggest comparing peak to peak average
temperature captures during weighted El - Nino events (during the time they occur, if they can be compared equally this would be a telling graph), instead
of considering year to year records as a means
of reducing ENSO
effects on the
temperature record, ENSO being largely a heat exchange between air and sea causing great changes in
cloud distribution world wide.
There are three types
of mechanisms that conspire to give a
cloud it's id: dynamical (air movements), thermodynamical (
temperature / humidity conditions) and microphysical (droplet collisions, aerosol
effects.
# 27 CCPO It's possible that CO2 contributes about a.6 C increase in
temperature and that the
effects of clouds acts as a negative feedback to moderate further increases.
Just two remarks: you keep on saying that the
effect of increased cloudiness «should be warming», whereas the data shown in the article clearly show the opposite (more
clouds cause lower surface level air
temperatures).
Unknown is what the overall
effect of greenhouse gases /
temperature was / is / will be on
cloud cover.
Re 9 wili — I know
of a paper suggesting, as I recall, that enhanced «backradiation» (downward radiation reaching the surface emitted by the air /
clouds) contributed more to Arctic amplification specifically in the cold part
of the year (just to be clear, backradiation should generally increase with any warming (aside from greenhouse feedbacks) and more so with a warming due to an increase in the greenhouse
effect (including feedbacks like water vapor and, if positive,
clouds, though regional changes in water vapor and
clouds can go against the global trend); otherwise it was always my understanding that the albedo feedback was key (while sea ice decreases so far have been more a summer phenomenon (when it would be warmer to begin with), the heat capacity
of the sea prevents much
temperature response, but there is a greater build up
of heat from the albedo feedback, and this is released in the cold part
of the year when ice forms later or would have formed or would have been thicker; the seasonal
effect of reduced winter snow cover decreasing at those latitudes which still recieve sunlight in the winter would not be so delayed).
When the CLIMAP data proved to be wrong, and was replaced by more reliable estimates showing a substantial tropical surface
temperature drop, Lindzen had to abandon his then - current model and move on to other forms
of mischief (first the «cumulus drying» negative water vapor feedback mechanism, since abandoned, and now the «Iris»
effect cloud feedback mechanism).
There will be Regionally / locally and temporal variations; increased
temperature and backradiation tend to reduce the diurnal
temperature cycle on land, though regional variations in
cloud feedbacks and water vapor could cause some regions to have the opposite
effect; changes in surface moisture and humidity also changes the amount
of convective cooling that can occur for the same
temperature distribution.
First, for changing just CO2 forcing (or CH4, etc, or for a non-GHE forcing, such as a change in incident solar radiation, volcanic aerosols, etc.), there will be other GHE radiative «forcings» (feedbacks, though in the context
of measuring their radiative
effect, they can be described as having radiative forcings
of x W / m2 per change in surface T), such as water vapor feedback, LW
cloud feedback, and also, because GHE depends on the vertical
temperature distribution, the lapse rate feedback (this generally refers to the tropospheric lapse rate, though changes in the position
of the tropopause and changes in the stratospheric
temperature could also be considered lapse - rate feedbacks for forcing at TOA; forcing at the tropopause with stratospheric adjustment takes some
of that into account; sensitivity to forcing at the tropopause with stratospheric adjustment will generally be different from sensitivity to forcing without stratospheric adjustment and both will generally be different from forcing at TOA before stratospheric adjustment; forcing at TOA after stratospehric adjustment is identical to forcing at the tropopause after stratospheric adjustment).
There can / will be local and regional, latitudinal, diurnal and seasonal, and internal variability - related deviations to the pattern (in
temperature and in optical properties (LW and SW) from components (water vapor,
clouds, snow, etc.) that vary with weather and climate), but the global average
effect is at least somewhat constrained by the global average vertical distribution
of solar heating, which requires the equilibrium net convective + LW fluxes, in the global average, to be sizable and upward at all levels from the surface to TOA, thus tending to limit the extent and magnitude
of inversions.)
This elegant, self - regulatory, atmospheric mechanism was soon attacked for being based on limited data and the inability
of other researchers to identify the
effect in other
cloud and
temperature data sets.
The mechanism which they claim to have identified is actually the opposite
of what Lindzen described, where he claimed that
clouds would increase as the result
of the greenhouse
effect and their albedo
effect would hold down
temperatures, but in the tropics the
clouds that Spencer et al were dealing with presumably become fewer in number.
A Lacis: You don't seem to appreciate the fact that water vapor and
clouds are feedback
effects, which means that the water vapor and
cloud distributions depend directly on the local meteorological conditions, and are therefore constrained by the
temperature dependence
of the Clausius - Clapeyron relation.
You don't seem to appreciate the fact that water vapor and
clouds are feedback
effects, which means that the water vapor and
cloud distributions depend directly on the local meteorological conditions, and are therefore constrained by the
temperature dependence
of the Clausius - Clapeyron relation.
So with the «greenhouse gas
effect» if I add more CO2 AND all other things remain equal,
temperature will increase, but if
clouds are a regulating mechanism, adding more CO2 doesn't have to change
temperature at all, just the amount
of energy required to maintain that
temperature would be reduced.
I write it off as a very real
effect that is not well characterized by the models, probably because these models don't model with enough accuracy the
effect of the additional aerosol particles on
cloud production to properly account for it's full
effect on
temperature.
These models suggest that if the net
effect of ocean circulation, water vapour,
cloud, and snow feedbacks were zero, the approximate
temperature response to a doubling
of carbon dioxide from pre-industrial levels would be a 1oC warming.
Modelers have chosen to compensate their widely varying estimates
of climate sensitivity by adopting
cloud feedback values countering the
effect of climate sensitivity, thus keeping the final estimate
of temperature rise due to doubling within limits preset in their minds.
What Willis is describing is that vulcanism can
effect air
temperature and
clouds, the changed air
temperature subtly changes the diurnal timing
of cloud formation and that changes the rate
of thermal charge accumulating in the oceans which ultimately is discharged in an El Niño.
I propose a simple dependence
of cloud cover and water vapor greenhouse
effect on incident solar radiance which can maintains
temperatures to 0.5 degrees over the last 4 billion years.
If ∆ T = λ ∆ Q is a reasonable approximation
of the (large - scale)
effects of forcing on globally averaged
temperature, why does it matter if a few
clouds are banging around locally on a given day?
Going forwards CO2 forcing is several times larger than the LIA solar forcing which was itself measurable in the surface
temperature record, so we expect CO2 forcing to be measurable for sure, and yes, it will be accompanied by some
effects of changing
clouds too, but we don't know which direction they would push it.
The net
effect of clouds is cooling as is demonstrated by largely cloudless deserts having higher mean annual
temperatures than moist climates at the same latitude.
Dr. Avakyan's paper attributes the known
temperature rise to the
effect of solar geomagnetic activity on
clouds, and the known rise
of CO2 to the carbon not absorbed due to expanding deforestation, desertification, and urbanization, and the resulting lessening
of photosynthesis.
If not either the CO2 / temp relationship is wrong [I do not think so] or the
effect of the CO2 rise is being variably
effected by negative feedbacks such as increased
cloud formation and albedo thus offsetting the CO2 related
temperature rise.
I have heard that global climate models have very rudimentary
cloud models and do not include such
effects of solar / cosmic rays nor
of the correlation with earth's Length
of Day (as impacted by
temperature and wind changes).
The physics
of cloud formation, the Clausius - Clapeyron relation, and elementary observations dictate that
cloud cover will increase with increasing surface
temperature, notwithstanding short term, non-climate or regional
effects like ENSO oscillations.
One important feedback, which is thought to approximately double the direct heating
effect of carbon dioxide, involves water vapor,
clouds and
temperature.
Clouds are one
of the big unknowns about global warming as they can have a range
of effects, warmer
temperatures caused by global warming will result in higher rates
of evaporation and therefore will result in higher
cloud cover.
If
cloud cover can vary as noted per the paper, and just a few percent change in
cloud cover can have a large
effect to
temperatures, then how much confidence can one have in the «CO2 is the greatest driver
of increased
temperatures?
A traditional parametrisation scheme seeks to represent the average
effect of the sub grid - scale motion (e.g. convective
clouds) on the resolved scale state (e.g. the large scale
temperature and wind fields).
Meanwhile it does not answer the main point
of my last post, which is that that most climatologists view this aspect
of the earth's environment as «weather» (or statistical noise) and that if you measure
temperatures for long enough periods
of time (30 + years) the
effect of clouds, rain and water vapour average out and a
temperature trend signal will become apparent.
More
clouds both drastically reduce energy input from the sun and simply slow release
of what energy there is trapped in the lower troposphere, but the long term
effect would be a fall in average
temperature because
of the significantly reduced input power but the atmosphere's ability to cool is aided by air current circulation whereby the warmer air rises above those low
clouds and that infra - red is more easily re-emitted into space, whereby the low
clouds now block that re-emission from hitting the ground again to any significant degree.
These include the
effects that trees have on local atmospheric chemistry and potentially the
clouds above them; until these are fully understood it is somewhat difficult to attribute a «
temperature benefit»
of a specific magnitude to a given afforestation scenario.
Excerpt: -LSB-...] «We have recently submitted to Journal
of Geophysical Research a research paper that shows how one can tell the difference between cause and
effect — between
clouds causing a
temperature change, and
temperature causing a
cloud change.
This being the case, a period
of higher sunspot activity would likely lead to reduced lower tropospheric
cloud cover (due to reduced albedo
effect) and generally higher
temperatures.